Curse

Skye Marin · Nov 18, 2010, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Think the best solution has two parts:

Improve Accessibility:
Some ideas have already been mentioned: Add Team Templates where people can join up and fill a role. If they don't have the skills unlocked, that's okay, as long as they are following the template. Better training for all gametypes, full tutorials, AI battles, and a checklist reward (like a HoM statue) for passing the test. Beyond giving people the knowledge to win, do everything you can to reduce group forming time, down time between matches, and frustration all around. Random should not be an option; rather, someone wanting to play whatever should be able to find a place in a Team Template and run with it. Frequent skill changes, buffs to anti-spike skills (Complicate, Panic, etc...) and better class design (ie: changing up how Paragons work to prevent Zergway) would also help remove frustration. If there are more bodies playing, then half of those new players have a good chance of beating the other half. Some of those successes will permanently add new blood, which is good.

Improve Rewards:
I dislike the idea of free Z-keys every win, not because of devaluation, but because of the possibility of red-resign. Z-keys can be for every win past a certain point, and I'd be fine with that. Other rewards would be PvP-exclusive weapons, minis, consumables, summoning stones, hell... even armor and dyes. What if a PvE skill improved in strength with a little progression in PvP titles? Have a little fun with it. Make "held halls" one HoM achievement with some extra rewards on top. How about this one: a Rare Scroll that guarantees unique weapon drops for one player in your party for the next boss.

Unfortunately, there likely is not enough man power on the live team or enough interest to implement these changes. HA could have been a lot different if these were added, say, instead of the 6v6 change, but what's done is done. I can live without it.

diabiosx · Nov 18, 2010, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

Think the best solution has two parts:

Improve Accessibility:
Some ideas have already been mentioned: Add Team Templates where people can join up and fill a role. If they don't have the skills unlocked, that's okay, as long as they are following the template. Better training for all gametypes, full tutorials, AI battles, and a checklist reward (like a HoM statue) for passing the test. Beyond giving people the knowledge to win, do everything you can to reduce group forming time, down time between matches, and frustration all around. Random should not be an option; rather, someone wanting to play whatever should be able to find a place in a Team Template and run with it. Frequent skill changes, buffs to anti-spike skills (Complicate, Panic, etc...) and better class design (ie: changing up how Paragons work to prevent Zergway) would also help remove frustration. If there are more bodies playing, then half of those new players have a good chance of beating the other half. Some of those successes will permanently add new blood, which is good.

Improve Rewards:
I dislike the idea of free Z-keys every win, not because of devaluation, but because of the possibility of red-resign. Z-keys can be for every win past a certain point, and I'd be fine with that. Other rewards would be PvP-exclusive weapons, minis, consumables, summoning stones, hell... even armor and dyes. What if a PvE skill improved in strength with a little progression in PvP titles? Have a little fun with it. Make "held halls" one HoM achievement with some extra rewards on top. How about this one: a Rare Scroll that guarantees unique weapon drops for one player in your party for the next boss.

Unfortunately, there likely is not enough man power on the live team or enough interest to implement these changes. HA could have been a lot different if these were added, say, instead of the 6v6 change, but what's done is done. I can live without it.

I like exclusive weapons idea.

helloeveryone · Nov 18, 2010, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Make PvP PuGs more amicable and the population will follow.

is that possible?

any plans or idea to go about making that a reality?

Mireles · Nov 18, 2010, 04:15 PM // 16:15

I think they just need to tone down the importance of consecutive wins... Make Halls of Heroes chest win-able once then start from the bottom again... and make /resign not work or add dishonor to resigned teams to prevent constant red resign...

The problem is that people are unwilling to play unless they will win consecutively because there is no or little reward otherwise.. So that means people won't gather unless they know they can win and only accept players that they have the best chance of winning with consecutively... and people that constantly lose against the refined teams won't play because there is no gain in it for them, and the streaking teams wins are worth more than trying again and over coming that team.

Long story short, all the importance of playing HA is based on winning consecutively which make people rather look for a "elite" players for hours on end or not even playing at all, instead of going with a pug that is just going to get fame farmed with little or no points gained.

If the same amount of fame was rewarded for each win, losing wouldn't be such a set back, The pay off for rank discrimination would be less because you can just squeeze out a few wins with a not so perfect team instead of waiting hours for a perfect one.

May not be the ultimate solution but I feel this would help.

hitsuji182 · Nov 18, 2010, 04:31 PM // 16:31

OK, here are some ideas I came up, which should make HA better place to play.

We definitely need more people. Most players we can grab from PvE. So what should we do in order to make HA friendly for them?

Although, it seems extremally hard to solve, everything is about rewards. Rank is one thing, but all we know it can take ages for PvEr to achive r9. But now I want to concentrate about something different - Hero Tokens (temporary name). For each win in HA, on any map, players would be awarded with these items (always one per win), which would be customized and untradeable. For a certain number of these tokens, player could unlock many different things at designed trader. Let's say 5 tokens for zkey, 10 for 1st year mini, 15 for hero armor, 200 for Voltaic Spear, 500 for Crystalline Sword. You got the idea. I list typical PvE stuff, releated to HoM, because I think it would be a great way to combine both PvE and PvP in some sense.

Improve mechanic.

Award fame for the map played, not consecutive wins. (Someone already suggested this in thread, so I just repeat what he said) In this manner:
UW - 1 fame
Fetid - 2 fame
Burial - 3 fame
Unholy Temples - 4 fame
Forgotten Shrines - 6 fame
Golden Gates - 8 fame
Courtyard - 12 fame
Antechamber - 16 fame
Hall of Heroes - 20 fame

However, in HoH for each consecutive win you get more fame, so:
1 hold - 24 fame
2 holds - 28 fame
3 holds - 32 fame
4 holds - 36 fame
5+ holds - 40 fame

Next thing - when you lose you don't have to start again, but instead you play on a previous map. You can lose maximum 2 times and after this you will be defeated and send back to the outpost. You can't continue if you lose in UW or HoH. I think it's pretty clear and also was suggested in the past. With map-fame-system something like that would be a great solution.

To prevent HoH farming, especially in dead hours make 1vs1 fair, which means no blue team. Holding team would be red.

If someone DC'ed/have to go, that player is changed with current henchman, not a zaishen one. Would be great to see something like that: If rit DC'ed, you get Nuno, if infuse mom error'd, you get Divinus Tutela and so on.

Add one extra drop from HoH-chest and maybe improve rates for some rare items. I won halls so many times and never got anything valuable...

Monthy skill balances are really needed. Not because to nerf broken builds (like BBway atm), but also to change the metagame, which is very important.

New map would be cool.

Essence Snow · Nov 18, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by helloeveryone

is that possible?

any plans or idea to go about making that a reality?

This would all depend on the current HA population, those that want more activity in HA. It would be a player fix not an Anet fix. If they (the current HA players) want more ppl in the format...they need to make PuGing HA more amicable. So inturn as much as it might pain them...they need to start PuGing. No I'm not talking about the few that lf r9+...I'm talking about the other HA players....the ones that want life back in HA. There simply has to be a compromise. If they are unwilling to compromise there is no point bothering with any revitalization effort.

ex) exp team of 8 (those that want life back into HA) splits in 4 two person teams and pugs...taking anyone on their team.

They (even though exp and accustomed to winning) will need to compromise and accept a few losses with pugs...in an attempt to breathe life back into HA. So all of the original team of 8 won't win, but 2 of the 8 might....and there are 24 more players in HA that otherwise wouldn't. Mutiply this and the population grows exponentially.

So basically the experienced that want HA more populated need to play with the inexperienced. They just need to compromise some wins for more activity.

Mireles · Nov 18, 2010, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitsuji182

However, in HoH for each consecutive win you get more fame, so:
1 hold - 24 fame
2 holds - 28 fame
3 holds - 32 fame
4 holds - 36 fame
5+ holds - 40 fame

Would defeat the whole purpose of eliminating consecutive wins...

and stacking more rewards that people can get in PvE or Buy from seasoned HA-ers not going to bring more people in.

axe · Nov 18, 2010, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Would defeat the whole purpose of eliminating consecutive wins...

and stacking more rewards that people can get in PvE or Buy from seasoned HA-ers not going to bring more people in.

Its a reward for the good/best teams, the reward for the rest is that instead of winning 1 fame and out, if you win UW and skip to courtyard and win there, you get the fame award for that map, if you lose, you move back a map where again that map has a higher reward than 1.

It would take the focus off consecutives to a degree, while still keeping incentive there for players that want to go in with the best. This solution is a great middle ground and easy to implement, meaning it is one of the more likely methods to ATTEMPT to breath a bit more life into the format, its not going to make much difference if teams dont form up though.

Fact is as you stated, consecutive wins are why the largest portion of the remaining HAers play, and in dead hours, you dont get consecutives even if you are the best team in, you get 1 win.

So as a result teams that only are playing for the consecutive wins, have also stopped playing, along with the low/mid ranked teams and pugs are almost out of the question.

vinoth · Nov 18, 2010, 10:37 PM // 22:37

The current state of Ha, most of the teams are high ranked or randomways. Dose the unranked team have a chance? When i first joined a HA team, I joined a random team with monks without secondary that took me all the way to courtyard. Can the new pve team experience such a game? No.

Solution.

You want a mass migration of pvers into PVP.

How?

Incentivse HA. Give them 1k per win. 2k for the 2nd win, in alignment with fame.

drawback would be inflation. A counter soultion would be to limit this incentive to 3 months. This is enough time for pvers to experience pvp and build a flist, build a guild, generally getting incorporated into PVP.

From there on, its a matter of time, before the skill comes out in them and they get poached by higher ranked teams.

galactic · Nov 19, 2010, 03:54 AM // 03:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skye Marin

I dislike the idea of free Z-keys every win, not because of devaluation, but because of the possibility of red-resign.

I suggest you play HA before commenting on it.

Saraneth · Nov 19, 2010, 08:28 AM // 08:28

6v6 format with suitable objectives/maps. /signed

helloeveryone · Nov 19, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

just an idea to get new players into PvP

how about this

1. Unranked player will get a higher amount of fame per win starting from UW map and multipy as they get consec wins.

2. Ranked 4+ player will get fame after 1 consec wins

3. Ranked 7+ player will only get fame after 2 consec wins

4. R11+ will only get fame point if they win/hold halls

Maybe this is logical? if unranked player can beat R6+ players, they really do deserve a higher amount of fame point compared to R6+ players beating them?

ANd also, no reason to give fame points to R4+ players if all they do is win/lose the first pvp round and resign for farming (reminds me of Iway).
R11+, this group of player should be competing in hall of h and thus truely deserving the title of "Eminent Hero"
How can you be Eminent for not competing in hall of h and win.

Definition of Eminent= standing above others in quality or position.

I hope this change will encourage new player to come to HA due to higher fame awarded for this group and at the same time making the Hero title more prestigious.

just my 2 cents

Missing HB · Nov 19, 2010, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Terrible idea : considering inactivity , r7+ teams wouldn't win anything + consider useless full runs

helloeveryone · Nov 19, 2010, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Terrible idea : considering inactivity , r7+ teams wouldn't win anything + consider useless full runs

1. Considered the inactivity that is why i suggested higher rewards for unranked and more deserving reward proportional to the pvper title

2. How could R7+ people deserve any fame for simply winning the first two rounds?R7 is suppose to be "Subjugating Hero" and should deserve fame after two con sec wins? Maybe you are right that the runs could be wasted but if you are already R7 shouldn't you be doing more than just winning first two rounds?

Subjugating Hero
Defination: Subjugating means forcing others to submit or subdue

diabiosx · Nov 19, 2010, 02:39 PM // 14:39

All the ideas from 144-154: I dont want you to destroy HA just because you want that bambi, Thank you.

Rewarding Zkeys for everywin, zkeys will eventually be worth less than 1k which will mean its not worth farming for the begginners. I rather make every monster in UW drop ectos at 100% rate than for this shit to happen. Why? I rather kill pve than pvp. Oh wait you guys just want to destroy pvp, get what you want and go back to pve.

Rewarding fame based on map, wow seriously?! so many ppl skip to HoH from UW, rewarding 24fame for that is just plain stupid. If everyone and their grandma has a tiger, there will be no point in getting it. A tiger will be the equivalent of a rank1 zrank if you were to implement it. Does any1 care about a zrank1??

And to the person suggesting making it harder for higher ranked players to get fame, you do realize that the higher ranked a person is, the more fame they need to reach to the next title correct? I'm just gonna leave it at this and hope u can figure out why your idea is bad.

TL:dR: 144-154 are posted by PVErs who are only self interested. All they want is farming zkeys and getting a shiny emote and doesnt care for the well being of HA.

Spookii · Nov 19, 2010, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

All the ideas from 144-154: I dont want you to destroy HA just because you want that bambi, Thank you.

Rewarding Zkeys for everywin, zkeys will eventually be worth less than 1k which will mean its not worth farming for the begginners. I rather make every monster in UW drop ectos at 100% rate than for this shit to happen. Why? I rather kill pve than pvp. Oh wait you guys just want to destroy pvp, get what you want and go back to pve.

Rewarding fame based on map, wow seriously?! so many ppl skip to HoH from UW, rewarding 24fame for that is just plain stupid. If everyone and their grandma has a tiger, there will be no point in getting it. A tiger will be the equivalent of a rank1 zrank if you were to implement it. Does any1 care about a zrank1??

And to the person suggesting making it harder for higher ranked players to get fame, you do realize that the higher ranked a person is, the more fame they need to reach to the next title correct? I'm just gonna leave it at this and hope u can figure out why your idea is bad.

TL:dR: 144-154 are posted by PVErs who are only self interested. All they want is farming zkeys and getting a shiny emote and doesnt care for the well being of HA.

THIS is the type of arrogance that makes PvP miserable.

Hate to break it to you, but PvP and PvE are both worthless if you want to get technical. Don't act like PvP is some sort of sacred institution that should only be played by worthy hardcore PvP'ers that base their gaming lives on gaining the same rewards that you uphold to be the most 1337 out there for the same sacred reasons that you do. Then I see people turning around and whining about not having anyone to play with because their old buddies left and no one else plays for the reasons they play. Several people have said it before: if you want more people to play with, those people can come from three places and three places only.

Old Players - Your friends aren't coming back. Changing minuscule game mechanics isn't going to make the game more interesting. If you're sitting there thinking to yourself "Gah, it'd be great if the game was the way it was 2 years ago..." you're probably stuck believing that this can happen. Hitting your head against a brick wall will get you no further than the brick wall.

New Players - Get rid of rank discrimination and play with new players. Zero problems with this, but people refuse to play with newbies because they don't want to take the time to teach.

PvE'ers - Yes, most of them will probably only play if there's something in it for them that they want. They have different goals for the game than you do. Why do you care? You'll have people to play with that aren't newbies to the game, and they get what they want. Win-Win. If you consider them not good enough to play with you, then maybe your issue needs more than a game-fix.

Now pick which place you want your future playmates to come from.

Or here's an idea: Draw straws to pick four or five unlucky players that will teach newbies with low ranks so the rest of you can have your way without any hassle!

No one is out to "destroy HA" for PvE gains. It's just silly to watch people running in circles after their tails when the answer is obviously right there in front of them, they just won't accept that they have to let go of the populated game that they used to play.

PvP is suffering the same fate that PvE is right now (In other words, the entire game). Lack of players. It's pretty hard to get a group for anything these days. Stay with what friends you have left, or make new ones. There's no other fix for this other than changing how people think, and that's something that no one can do.

My main advice: Play something else if it really bothers you that much.

/leavethread

helloeveryone · Nov 19, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

All the ideas from 144-154: I dont want you to destroy HA just because you want that bambi, Thank you.

Rewarding Zkeys for everywin, zkeys will eventually be worth less than 1k which will mean its not worth farming for the begginners. I rather make every monster in UW drop ectos at 100% rate than for this shit to happen. Why? I rather kill pve than pvp. Oh wait you guys just want to destroy pvp, get what you want and go back to pve.

Rewarding fame based on map, wow seriously?! so many ppl skip to HoH from UW, rewarding 24fame for that is just plain stupid. If everyone and their grandma has a tiger, there will be no point in getting it. A tiger will be the equivalent of a rank1 zrank if you were to implement it. Does any1 care about a zrank1??

And to the person suggesting making it harder for higher ranked players to get fame, you do realize that the higher ranked a person is, the more fame they need to reach to the next title correct? I'm just gonna leave it at this and hope u can figure out why your idea is bad.

TL:dR: 144-154 are posted by PVErs who are only self interested. All they want is farming zkeys and getting a shiny emote and doesnt care for the well being of HA.

you and your species, Sir, are the main reason why HA is dead. you might not get what i mean but most here knows why.

If any pver just want a useless emote of any kind of animal, they can just buy it.

All the poster here is thinking of ways to make HA more friendly to players especially those that came late into the game. They are thinking of possibilities and ways to make it better. Ideas may or may not be good, but most are hoping to see HA populated again. That is the purpose of this thread.
I do not see any constructive idea coming out from you other than QQ about not being able to get more fame so your dog emote can become a giant cat, so you are probably the last person to care about the well being of HA.

Maver1ck87 · Nov 19, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spookii

THIS is the type of arrogance that makes PvP miserable.

Hate to break it to you, but PvP and PvE are both worthless if you want to get technical. Don't act like PvP is some sort of sacred institution that should only be played by worthy hardcore PvP'ers that base their gaming lives on gaining the same rewards that you uphold to be the most 1337 out there for the same sacred reasons that you do. Then I see people turning around and whining about not having anyone to play with because their old buddies left and no one else plays for the reasons they play. Several people have said it before: if you want more people to play with, those people can come from three places and three places only.

Old Players - Your friends aren't coming back. Changing minuscule game mechanics isn't going to make the game more interesting. If you're sitting there thinking to yourself "Gah, it'd be great if the game was the way it was 2 years ago..." you're probably stuck believing that this can happen. Hitting your head against a brick wall will get you no further than the brick wall.

New Players - Get rid of rank discrimination and play with new players. Zero problems with this, but people refuse to play with newbies because they don't want to take the time to teach.

PvE'ers - Yes, most of them will probably only play if there's something in it for them that they want. They have different goals for the game than you do. Why do you care? You'll have people to play with that aren't newbies to the game, and they get what they want. Win-Win. If you consider them not good enough to play with you, then maybe your issue needs more than a game-fix.

Now pick which place you want your future playmates to come from.

Or here's an idea: Draw straws to pick four or five unlucky players that will teach newbies with low ranks so the rest of you can have your way without any hassle!

No one is out to "destroy HA" for PvE gains. It's just silly to watch people running in circles after their tails when the answer is obviously right there in front of them, they just won't accept that they have to let go of the populated game that they used to play.

PvP is suffering the same fate that PvE is right now (In other words, the entire game). Lack of players. It's pretty hard to get a group for anything these days. Stay with what friends you have left, or make new ones. There's no other fix for this other than changing how people think, and that's something that no one can do.

My main advice: Play something else if it really bothers you that much.

/leavethread

Srsly, you clearly missed the point of his post. He wasn't saying that PvEers were actively trying to destory PvP. And at no point did he say it was a sacred institution. ALL he said was the previous 20 or ideas look good on the surface but have problems long term. This comes from people proposing ideas that would benefit them and not really considering the long term LASTING complication of these changes.

Every point he made was valid, my I suggest that you /leavethread if you do not have the time to read and understand the complex points made in a post such as his.

Lets look at extremes of some of the examples given and hence why they would create a problem. Effectively if u make a change you can see the longterm effects of the change by looking what would happen if u made the same change x100

A) Increase Z keys per win: If u got 100 Z keys/ win
1) Z keys would be worthless,
2) entire gold item and tonic market would be destroyed
- hence, if u increase the z keys /win, u kill the market

B) Increase the fame for noobies: Instantly after your first win u get r3..... and then after that u get ranks slower and slower....
1) r3 becomes worthless
2) only groups forming are r4+ and we are back to the same point we are at with rank discrimation
- hence, it might provide a short term fix to the rank problem but would only further create the same rank discrimination just shifted to higher ranks

and so on and so forth with the other ideas.

So please, WHEN U POST AN IDEA THINK IT THROUGH FOR 6 MONTHS FROM NOW!!!! WHAT WILL HAVE HAPPENED? will it destroy a market, will it destroy a title track? will it long term make something worthless

The best ideas are ones such as this!

Non tradable tokens won in proportion to the amount of fame u win!
.
These tokens are tradable at weapon smith for a new set of exclusive weapons e.g. eternal axe, eternal scythe, eternal long bow, eternal wand and focus items. e.g. 250 tokens / item etc.....

This would have almost no effect on the economy except creating another money sink (good thing)

And wouldnt destroy HA titlte

AND WOULD create an influx of PvEers wanting cool new items

gg

NOW Mr. Spooki, hopefully that will demonstrate a GOOD suggestion for ya and maybe begin to shed some light on what fierce was talking about. Don't just get angry cos hes higher ranked than you!

Oh ps. Good High ranked (and proper high ranked) don't have trouble finding players, we have guilds and friends lists of other playas! What u see forming in ID 1 is the fame farmers who dont get onto friends lists cos they aint that good!

This applies to Mr. Helloeveryone as well! What YOU also missed was that he was pointing out FLAWS in other peoples suggestions. This is so that they can adapt them and come up with other suggestions!

Can PvEers stop getting angry at PvPers?

hitsuji182 · Nov 19, 2010, 03:58 PM // 15:58

Quote:

TL:dR: 144-154 are posted by PVErs who are only self interested. All they want is farming zkeys and getting a shiny emote and doesnt care for the well being of HA.

So basically you want to keep HA unavailable as it's possible. And you mistake our thinking - we aren't PvErs, we try to think like PvErs (ok, ley's say I'm not and i only speak for myself atm), which is a significant difference. In order to make this format alive again we essentialy need a wave of new players and where we can find them is the PvE.

I agree with you that so much reward can be broken and all these ideas like zkey/1k per win are dumb. Instead of it we need to implement something more complex, for example my hero token idea. Good players would be able to farm let's say 30-40 tokens per day, while new or not-so-good gamers maximum 10. It's quite ballanced I think and 5 tokens per key is not going to destroy the entire economy.

Also I lost my interest in getting emotes months ago. I don't play for rank, I play for fun and definitelly want to see HA in better condition and much more alive. That's the point.

Maver1ck87 · Nov 19, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitsuji182

So basically you want to keep HA unavailable as it's possible. And you mistake our thinking - we aren't PvErs, we try to think like PvErs, which is a significant difference. In order to make this format alive again we essentialy need a wave of new players and where we can find them is the PvE.

I agree with you that so much reward can be broken and all these ideas like zkey/1k per win are dumb. Instead of it we need to implement something more complex, for example my hero token idea. Good players would be able to farm let's say 30-40 tokens per day, while new or not-so-good gamers maximum 10. It's quite ballanced I think and 5 tokens per key is not going to destroy the entire economy.

Also I lost my interest in getting emotes months ago. I don't play for rank, I play for fun and definitelly want to see HA in better condition and much more alive. That's the point.

No, having tokens for z keys is pointless.... srsly why develop a whole new thing just to get more z keys.

Easier way, double the faction per win.

Basically ur suggestion is... increase the amount of z keys u get for HA by a small amount. As i said, thats easily done by increasing faction gain. HOWEVER it is still susceptible to supply/demand of z keys and eventually price will drop and so will the interest in HA.

Look at my idea, token per fame you win. New set of items, 250 tokens/item GG! wont kill the z key economy and it will increase the HA population. I reckon create a whole line of eternal weapons but meh, anything cool will do!

Pz